WTF: What's the Future of Digital Transformation - Marketing Technology

Get the insights and predictions for Marketing Technology for 2021

This is the Dynamicweb Livestream of WTF: What is the future of Digital Transformation. 

In this series of Livestreams, we will introduce how you can approach digital transformation. 

This Livestream covers marketing technology.

We have had the pleasure of interviewing Scott Brinker, editor at chiefmartec.com and VP Platform at HubSpot. Scott is one of the most knowledgeable expert within all things related to marketing technology. In this conversation, we ask him to share his insights on the Martech and reveal which trends he foresees in the future: 

  • Re-platforming ecommerce environments 
  • Platform vs. best of breed 
  • How to navigate in the technology landscapes 

 

Read the livestream transcript
What’s the Future of Digital Transformation – Marketing Technology

Eric: Hello, welcome to this episode of dynamicweb WTF. What's the future of digital transformation in which we will talk about the B2B marketing technology trends for 2021. In this livestream, we have Scott Brinker VP platform at HubSpot editor at chief MarTech, and we will cover how B2B organizations can apply marketing technology.

His advice on replatforming eCommerce environments platform versus best of breed discussion and how you can navigate the technology landscape. And we have several more topics to go through. I hope you enjoy today's live stream and that you can take away some elements of today. And with that, I would like to welcome Scott.

Eric Jan C. van Putten: There we go got off the beginning. So welcome to dynamicweb, WTF, what is the future of digital transformation? Our guest today is Scott Brinker, chief marketing technologist, editor of chief martech.com and VP platform at HubSpot. We will talking about B2B marketing technology trends for 2021.

Scott. Great to have you.

Scott Brinker: I'm delighted to be here, Eric.

Eric Jan C. van Putten: Very cool, man. I'm very excited. So businesses and marketing departments might be facing spending restrictions and budget cuts amidst the turmoil of 2020, but marketing technology is not an area that is widely being affected on the contrary. In fact, predictions around e-commerce technology and digital transformation are still all showing a healthy growth of double digits.

If not more, but just spending more on technology doesn't mean that goals will be reached. So on that Trek, Scott, you've been keeping a track of marketing technology for years and have become the godfather of Mark MarTech. So what is your take on B2B organizations can apply technology to help drive their business.

Scott Brinker: Yeah. 2020 has been a rough year for everyone. But that being said, I think for many companies we've really expanded the horizon of how we can engage with customers meaningfully through digital channels. And I think even once we get past  the. Craziness of, the COVID pandemic.

W we will bring back more ways in which we engage in the real world. Of course, but I think a lot of these new digital channels will continue to thrive just because of the speed and the convenience that they offer to so many B2B buyers and customers. And so I think, yeah, this is why budgets.

For MarTech are still fairly resilient right now is people recognize this is now just become a sea change in how businesses engage with each other. And you're competing now on how good your digital experiences are. , yeah I think the world doesn't change in a single year, so there's still a lot of work to be done and a lot of improvement in the practices around this.

But I think we'll make a lot of great progress on that in 2021.

Eric Jan C. van Putten: I fully hear you on that one. Being an absolute I love technology and I love marketing and how the two can really play together can really help drive a business to be successful. But you do need the right data strategy behind it.

You need a plan behind it because sometimes, and I have it on some of my earlier discussions as well. Is. I think sometimes integration has become too easy and because it becomes show,

Scott Brinker: we don't hear that very often stage we've got to do, we should celebrate that.

Eric: I could compare it. I had a discussion with one of our sales guys a couple of weeks ago on that. Because if you would actually go back. Five years, make it 10 years then trying to integrate would require some significant coding, right? You need a strategy.

You need to figure out API APIs. You need to figure out mapping and all kinds of magic, not alone, waiting for the service the agency the it department to hook everything up, any way you like these days, you go to a Zapier Workato or whatever API middleware solution. And. Marketing operations has system a hooked up to system B in a matter of what hour and a half, if they have a slow day.

Scott: Yeah, no,  it's impressive. And so I think part of it's yeah. All those integration platform as a service tools, have really done a marvelous job in connecting what was a very disconnected landscape. But I also have to say, I feel like, so  the platform companies too, I'm biased here obviously, but you know that the platform companies, are making real progress in opening up more API surface area, and whether you're doing this through an I-PASS or even a direct integration between two products, I think.

Yeah. Again, what I was reacting to was you saying, integrations almost become too easy now.  Yeah, we should just take a moment to celebrate that because not to say that there aren't other challenges that we now have to, manage as well too, but boy, year after year survey, after survey, the number one barrier people claimed was holding them back on MarTech was integration.

We're not done with the journey yet, but man, that's it's cool to see that milestone. Yeah, no, I,

Eric: I do agree and I'm quite happy with it as well, because yeah, I can go into most systems said and just hook it up. Course-correct if data doesn't flow a hundred percent, how it should be you have power apps, you have Zapier, you have Workato.

And then of course you have direct integrations and even those are becoming easier these days, sometimes with some middleware. Parking lot where you can park the data just to be picked up five minutes later. You name it that now the element that I do see as a challenge with that is that it's becoming so easy.

Is that all right? Almost literally everyone can do it. So if you have a big international team, you have departments going rogue, you have additional costs protecting the data. Quality also become sometimes pressured, simply because you can add so much additional technology. And well, one of the things technology does do sometimes is.

Break. And right. Yeah,

Scott: No, I think it's a totally fair concern. You could argue. This is the pattern that technology takes that basically, you start out the technology is very inaccessible. Nobody, you can do it. And so that's the biggest problem is, Oh my goodness, it's so hard to do this, but then you like, yeah.

Go up this curve where it becomes easier and easier. In fact, the phrase I would use would be, it becomes more democratized. More people can do this. This is very much a pattern we're seeing right now with all these no-code tools. For instance, in fact, you could argue things like Zapier and a Workado right.

They're no-code tools themselves, but now yeah, you get to a place where, okay. Now the challenge is we've got so many people who are empowered. The challenge becomes. The governance around this, how do we make sure that, what these people are doing is good. That there's a coherence to it, that the guard rails are in place.

And yeah, , some of these platforms are better at this than others, but I think, again, this is the way technology works is you solve one problem. You solve one roadblock, everything moves forward for the next one. You're like, okay, we gotta figure this one out. And I'm an optimist on this thing.

I think this is a solvable problem. I think if you look at a lot of how the larger, no code, low code platforms are being built and deployed exactly becomes one of their selling features, is there, like here are the mechanisms we put in place to provide that sort of governance and safety net and make sure that things are being done well.

Fully,

Eric Jan C. van Putten: Fully agree. And I think that the no-code approach does make things so much easier that there is of course a risk, which is basically moving it back to the organization, which has nothing to do with the technology itself. It's the structure around it. That becomes a challenging and maybe jumping to another element, which I would.

Very much love your thoughts on a personalization, right? Personalization engines, personalization options. There are some bigger vendors  and even analysts out there that slowly starts to. Kick certain personalization acceptation to the curve. Personally, I'm a big fan of personalization.

I've had the luck of implementing a, something, a simple personalized, let's say front page a couple of times, and just that the ability. To let's say, do some personalization based on IP data, which I'm also a fan of. Yes, right now it's a little bit challenging, but still there's enough body behind to do something like that.

But if you are able to create that hybrid model based on IP available data to personalize on, and then you combine that with implicit explicit, you name it It grabs your audience in the first critical 10 seconds and then based on the rest of their behavior on their websites. Yeah, it can take over w what is your take on personalization?

Scott: So I actually have a slightly contrarian view on personalization, which is odd. Like I'm a technologist. I love the technology. I'll be the first to acknowledge that, in particular, the evolution that's happening with machine learning around personalization has gotten really good.

It's really impressive. But that being said, I think to be honest, most of the problems I see with companies is not okay. But they aren't personalizing their content. It's the fact that they're content, it sucks. Personalized bad content. It's nowhere near as valuable as non-personalized good content, and I sometimes feel this is the nature of technology. Again, it's we can't help it. It's like a human bias. Like we are always looking for the silver bullet, MarTech is always tantalizing and tempting is a silver bullet. But for all the benefits that MarTech can give us, it's almost entirely predicated, on the actual products and offers and underlying content, that we're in a position to offer.

And I've just seen too many companies that don't invest in getting that then they spend a bunch of money on personalization. It doesn't work and they're like, see that personalization technology sucks. I'm like,

Eric: I very much liked it. They can do that level as well, because I think you're spot on.

How often do you land on a website and it takes minutes to figure out what the heck they're selling. That gets to frustrate that gets loaded on a, your nails at some bone. So I certainly hear you on that one and yeah, the personalization. I also don't think it's a technology problem.

It's mostly business problem. Getting personalization, you can go with the simplest of simple website technology either getting another. Plugin or additional Java code or whatever installed and personalization is within hand reach. But then indeed, I think what you're also work too is it's actually the challenge of the company.

I've worked at some moment at a company where we were starting to do simple front page and product pages, personalization technology-wise we had it installed in 90 minutes. The discussion about what content has to go, where to

Eric Jan C. van Putten: three months.

Scott Brinker: Yeah. So my background is before I was in MarTech, generally I was really specializing in the field of conversion optimization.

So I spent many years helping a number of fortune 500 companies with their conversion optimization programs. And it was always fascinating because at the time in like the mid two thousands, things like multi-variant testing, were just becoming, popular and accessible.

But it's interesting because like, when you look at a customer journey with multi-variate testing, And you have whatever it is, like five, six, seven different elements, each of which has, two, three, five different variations you get into this Combitube aerial situation where the particular combination that any one customer might see,

Scott Brinker, guest speaker: marketers minds. We don't think that way. We think very linearly, like we're very good at storytelling and narratives. We're very bad at being able to picture how the combination tutorial side of things. Impacts that narrative and, and In some ways I think personalization is, again, like just a variation of that is it really does require a different kind of thinking about your strategy of how are the personalized elements going to fit in to the narrative structure that you build around it and actually reinforce that narrative rather than conflicting with it.

And and this is doable. There are companies who get really good at this, but it's just. It is a very different skill than like linear, static, narrative development. And , again, I think like one of the mistakes is people just underestimate the skill that gets required to elaborate to that.

Well,

Eric: Oh, to do it well.  And really to make it part of that start to finish experience is what makes a huge difference. And it's not always the easiest technology. I think we can. I think we can agree on, it's not the challenge here. It's more of the business side and the ability to apply technology in a manner that it really drives a better experience really.

Right.

Scott: Yep. Completely

Eric: agree. Cool. Cool. Yeah, it's curious about that one because I've been listening to so many webinars and even asking questions where they shoot certain elements of that completely to the ground. And I'm always thinking It's not that, it's a challenge of the kind of frustrates me because I think there is so much greatness possible technology is so cool that these days you can hook up everything and you can get insights from, I know that this is really not cutting edge technology, but you can see which companies are on your website.

You can side load in additional data based on their IP. Then. Build that implicit and explicit data may be have your CRM talk to your web, a user database. And then that way, when it recognizes the visitor, even with the whole, and let's not go in there, but the whole GDPR topic, you can still do so many fantastic things.

And it's a missed opportunity too often. And that every visitor gets exactly the same home page.

Scott: Yeah. , yeah.  Totally simpatico with you on this. I think one of the broader things I would say, and again, this kind of goes back to the, my conversion optimization days is.

It always struck me how foreign the concept of experimentation is to most marketing departments. Marketing just has this really rich legacy of, these long range plans. You get everything mapped out in advance. The production costs are credibly high. It's a mass media, presentation.

And and like the people who win it's a little bit the fooled by randomness sort of thing of, those who happened to get the right creative at the right time. And it catches,  the, their instincts, are clearly, what make them a super marketer But yeah, the digital world makes experimentation so easy and accessible and companies like Amazon and Google and who have really leaned into digital experimentation is like one of the bedrocks of how they grow their businesses.

And then you can go into most marketing departments and people are still really reluctant to embed experimentation. Into their process. It's okay, we're going to do X. And then we do one version of X and it's out and we're done. Okay. Now we're going to go do something else. And this whole idea of even just some simple AB testing which one of these is going to work best.

I want to come. They just don't do it.

Eric: I wanted to ask you that actually. But I think that why not? I think of course everyone is hung up with all the day to day stuff that needs to happen. Maybe, and again, I also don't fully agree there. Because again, it's a given reason why some things like personalization is on its way back is that it's too hard to measure the actual results from it.

And maybe the testing element probably plays into that as well, because it's not clear enough what the real difference is. Testing slash personalization is on his way back. Now, the hard part is I have a little bit of a challenge understanding that because I think it's all perfectly fine. You can measure it.

You can absolutely see the difference by if you apply personalization, you will get more conversions. You get longer time on site. Yeah, some might be vanity metrics but there's nothing wrong with vanity metrics as long as you place them there. I think there's

Scott: a big difference between vanity metrics and proxy metrics where like a vanity metric is something that we can say there's really no correlation, to business outcomes further down the road, which.

There's some of that, but I think, particularly in B2B, right? You're dealing with long sales cycles, long lifetime customer value periods obviously right. You can't, do anything, in like a real time, and say, yes, okay let's wait two years and see how this experiment worked out.

So you have to find proxies, but the truth is, particularly with all the business intelligence capabilities that we have now, It's actually pretty easy to like, do the historical analysis to see, okay, what is the relationship between these variables that are happening up at the top of the customer journey?

And then these variables in the middle, and then these variables at the end and you get those correlations. They're not perfect, but they're not that random either then give each other, and so you're then using the proxy metric, the way to do your rapid experimentation.

Scott Brinker, guest speaker: And again, it's not to say that it. Perfect. But again, In all things, that are dealing with human engagement, it's not about perfect measurement. It's about directionally, honing in on what resonates and works best. So yeah, I,

Eric: I hear you on that one. So maybe coming a little bit back to the first question is if we would say the top three or five technologies that you see for next year, Years for B2B organizations.

W what do you think are the top technologies we're going to see emerging or developed further?

Scott: Yeah,  So I, I think there's a few interesting ones. So I've been doing a lot of research lately on the rapid evolution of the no code universe, which again, to me, isn't just about, no code is in like building little apps, although there's a lot of that, it's really this idea of saying giving non.

Specialist business users, just any regular marketer, the capabilities to do things that previously they would have had to either wait for someone, in a centralized expert team to get to, if they ever got to it or spend a bunch of money to hire someone externally, to do it or just not do it.

There's a bunch of these things that fall into the category of  would really like this. But I can't wait six months for it. I can't spend $20,000. Have some external vendor like created for me. So I guess I'll just live without it. And when a lot of these no-code tools they're doing is they're saying, Oh, actually I could take a few hours and do that myself.

Awesome. So I think we're going to see a lot more of that, and then, per the, concern you raise okay, yes, that solves one problem by democratizing all these capabilities. But then that gets us to a new challenge of okay, How do we govern and orchestrate, this much wider group of contributors and creators inside our organization.

And to be honest, this is a problem we can solve with technology. too. It's actually a fantastic, use case for things like machine learning, because ultimately what it comes down to is you're looking at, these data patterns and these usage patterns, across a very large spectrum of independent moving, apps and workflows and stuff like that.

And machine learning can actually do a really good job of analyzing that and staying on top of it and recognizing when exceptions are happening or recognize, when some sort of  by they call that disturbance in the force, is happening in what it was expecting, as a, pattern.

So I think there's going to be some really exciting technologies there

Eric: to maybe hook up onto that one from a B2B perspective. Do you think then that machine learning will really take a good stab at let's say CRM systems, Salesforce, Microsoft, because yeah. These things have still been basically a big ass Rolodex these days.

Scott: So actually I'll push back on that, partly because, I have. Then the affiliation with the CRM company, I get to see a little bit behind the scenes. And the truth is actually machine learning is being deeply embedded in most of these CRM, like Salesforce dont know dynamics as well. But I'd be very surprised if it wasn't.

 But yeah, Salesforce, right? They're all like Einstein, moving into these evolutions, again, it's not a Adobe in, what was it? The sensei stuff. And again, it's not perfect. This stuff is still very much in a form where it's like evolving and maturing and it's got a ways to go.

But yeah, I I get it. I've been wanting to harness those capabilities.

Eric: Yeah. Okay, cool. That of course  I'm a big fan of the whole CRM, because I do see from also a marketing point of view, it is disorder, one of the best sources of truth for us as well to really drive your marketing strategies from there ranging from key accounts to sec segmentation yet the words really.

But  do see that some. Automation and machine learning is being applied, but not there yet.

Scott: This is the nature of technology. It's I love that we're getting into the Phyllis philosophy of this stuff, but it's like technology is like one of those things, like you get these high expectations.

And then at some point when you actually meet those expectations, we very quickly just take that for granted. And now we have expectations that are, much further down the road.  Still think about like the magic, of what I can do on my mobile phone, but just like magically, touching my fingers here and I like can access anything anywhere in the world.

I, it doesn't mean Holy crap. It's pretty fantastic major like science fiction device. The people on star Trek would have been jealous of it, but no, we like take it all for granted. Now I'm like, Oh, this is last year's model. It doesn't have nearly as good of a camera as, this year's model.

And you're like, okay,

Eric: it is fricking amazing what you can do. You can do so much with that. Just. Near fields through to geograph everything. Do you walk in your lights? Go on, heck your coffee machine wakes up when you actually hit the restroom.

Scott: Seriously, this is like this future we're living in and here you and I are.

We're like, yeah, my CRM, doesn't like automatically close my business contacts where you're like, all right, we'll get there. But come on. Let's. Let's celebrate

Eric: it. It is a magical time where we are with technology and business possibilities, that insights that we can have these days. It's.

It's fantastic. Okay. So I would say that's two ish technologies. What else do you think really for B2B businesses that, that we can start seeing in the next years?

Scott: I think wow. So many places we could go with that. I do think the machine learning and the AI is continuing, there's another generation that's just emerging now.

That's really, talk about science fiction. If you've worked at the GPT three examples I just saw that boy, I wish I could remember the name of this. They just released a product that what you do is you go in and you just write a few bullets of, yeah, this is why I want communicate.

And then, this GPT engine back to SAS product. Like writes is like beautifully dressed to the email from it, and if you don't like the way it wrote that one, you hit a button and it tries it in like entirely different style. And you're like, Holy crap. So I'm one of those people that like, I labor over emails.

So this is why I'm always behind in my correspondence is I'm always like is this like the sentence? I know what I want to say. I know that main points, but I get hung up in the language which is a total flaw on my end, but. But yeah, you look at something like this and you're like, okay.

Yeah, here's the main points. Do it. And what, this is a hell of a lot better than what I would've been able to craft myself anyway. And yeah, I think you're going to see a variety of these tools. There's that what is it, the tool for podcasts and videos that descript, if you haven't looked at that and like you go in and you want to change the text of the recorded.

Scott Brinker, guest speaker: Podcasts you're typing the text and it is changing the audio accordingly. And you're like, What's up bro. And so I think the next couple of years, we're just going to see a, an explosion of these tools that when you first look at them, you're going to be like, this is just magic. And,

Eric:  I've been waiting for that.

I've a couple of years ago I started implementing. Relatively smart.  Chatbots, conversational marketing, if you will chat bots where the playbook and all kinds of automation connected to it. And although I, it was really cool because the only thing they've done was slapping different technologies together, making it quite strong.

From there on though, where it really became fun is why don't we have a chat bot with machine learning just yet where you can actually pinpoint chatbots. This is my website. I have this good to that good web pages on it now. Go may magic do it.

Scott: Yeah. I, I am quite certain, we will see that here, within if that appeared in 2021, it would not surprise me at this point.

Don't get me wrong. I'll still be amazed when I see it. I'll be like, that's freaking awesome. But yeah, the we are on the. The cusp. What is that like? The, what they call it in a function it's an inflection point where basically, the curve of what is possible, has hit an inflection point here where I think just some of the innovations we'll start to see rapidly in succession.

Yeah it's going to blow people's minds. I study this stuff like, 24 seven, and I still get paid. If I'm coming across. I'm like, wow,

Eric: I'm also every year I do try to keep up as much as possible. But overall you see so much technology what is coming up? The easiness of stars using it and the insights it can drive.

It's truly amazing. Do you think, and then feel free to of course name it by what it is. But email marketing has also progressed over years and although some people say that email marketing is dead, which at the same time, no one believed which I also don't believe. I think it's a fantastic channel to, to still use.

What is your take on maybe some trends in email marketing specific.

Scott: Yeah.  It never ceases to amaze me. The email's dead. Personalization is dead. SEO is dead, and it's just. Yeah. The more people who think that the better, because for those of us who still know how to use these channels, it means less competition.

Like we win more. So yeah, go ahead. Yeah. It's that? Yeah. And I think the example we were just talking about where. I think the biggest innovation we're going to see in content creation in general, is AI providing a much bigger assist in the creation process? Because the truth is I mean we as marketers, we know the essence of what we want to communicate.

But again, creating like individual content. Assets still takes a lot of work. And going back to our earlier discussion, frankly, it's one of the reasons probably why there isn't more experimentation is because it's hard enough to write one version of the email. If I had to write three versions of the email, to test yeah.

Who has time for that, but when you start to apply, these generative AI engines, so that again, they're not completely running off on their own, you have. You have to guide them, you have to feed them. But the amount of time that takes to provide that guidance is a fraction of the amount of time it took to have to do all that work yourself, and so I think one of the things hopefully we'll get out of that is that we'll actually open up the ability to bring a lot more experimentation because Hey, listen, it took me 30 seconds. To create one set of this assets. And I guess I'll take a couple more minutes and create five versions of this asset.

And then the, system can automatically run the variations. And  can find which one in a test group, has 20% more lift and then use that for the rest of the list. And, Ooh, don't I look like a hero.

Eric: I do think that certainly an email marketing, because it's such a controlled channel and when your lists are any decent size, and honestly, I think with 5,000 people, it's already at a size, you can start getting significant testing numbers out of it.

It is an under utilized general to learn quicker about the audience you have in your database to apply smarter and better matching content to them. So I do think that. Email marketing can absolutely benefit for more automated test. It helped by machine learning.

Scott: Yep. So there's that aspect of MarTech that I don't think is going to get, better and much better in the next few years.

So it's a good time.

Eric Jan C. van Putten: It, it is. So it may be as well. And as you were also the VP of platform at hubspot, I'm not sure how call like this question will be. But an often the question that I think everyone in technology. Struggles. Not sure if that's the right word, but struggles with is what is your approach to platform versus best of breed?

It's a classic.

Scott Brinker: Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for that set up. So I would actually argue the way that question has traditionally been framed is suite versus best of breed with the idea being that the suite gives you everything you need, it all works together, but you're limited to what's in the box versus best of breed is, Hey, take whatever you want from the open market, but it's up to you to figure out.

How to get it all connected, and I actually think the platform strategies are way of breaking that dichotomy and basically saying, listen, It makes sense. You probably do want a common foundation, something that becomes your underlying system of record your underlying system of engagement.

 As a way to orchestrate and coordinate all these different things, but you really want that platform to be open, so that you can plug in any of the other capabilities that you want and you want the freedom to choose. The best capability from the open market that you think fits your needs specifically, and you expect that it will be able to then work, with the underlying platform that you're using.

And I think the industry is collectively now headed in that direction. We MarTech. Really did fight that for a very long time. Even up until just a few years ago, there were, some of these very large companies who were like, yeah, no, just get our suite. That's all your Apple ever need, despite the absolutely overwhelming evidence in the market.

And that was not actually what people wanted. And yeah I think we are headed in that way. And I think, again, it was going back to, the crazy stuff of all these mobile phones. The reason they're so successful as platforms is because it has become so effortless for me as a consumer to say, Oh, I like this particular app, and I can just bring it onto my phone and it just has the UI and it works and it's safe, it's, the fact that there's a, a million apps available for these things.

It actually doesn't stress me out because I'm like, yeah, sure. There's a million, but I don't stress over, which of them I like, I find one that works for me that I I install it. I use it. I love it. If I don't, I move on in something else, and again it, it will never be that easy, with business systems.

So these are obviously more complex, environments and complex, but as some tonically that's the direction we want this to go and. Frankly. I don't see any reason why we can't get there.

Eric: I think that's also a really good point. I think that is also for the past 10 plus years. My thoughts as well, I love the suite slash platform.

It was never the only platform in place. There was always a need to do anything else. If not the simplest, let's say a CRM system that you need, or you need an ERP system or you need one make it really extremely simple. You need Google analytics often. And then you're talking and integration already a minor, but still so I, I absolutely loved the idea that platform is a great.

Start, and it should really house a lot of the core elements that, that you need and they have a platform has that core element. I would say, build around that. Does it offer enough of what you need? Great. They'll make your life harder. Don't add more integration. Don't add to costs. Don't add specialisms, but there will often be of course, an element where you are further along, more experienced than what's the solution can really offer.

And then it is absolutely key to look into other solutions best of breed solution. Yeah, I think that's a really cool. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Scott: No, I was just going to say  there's so much software in the world. I mean this, anyone who thinks that one company is going to build it all and build it all perfectly to serve everyone in some sort of like Steve jobs, 1984 commercial, because it just, yeah.

It's just not going to be, that's not the world we live in. And the thing that's crazy is there's actually no, the reason to fight that, the reason why, you know, Apple is such a ridiculously,  valuable company is not because they build every single app, that someone's gonna use on the iPhone.

It's actually, because. They've got a platform, and everyone builds apps for them, and every app that gets built for Apple makes Apple more valuable without them having to actually done any work to get that

It is

Eric: a brilliant

model

Scott: cool. When you can get that fly wheel going. Yeah.

Eric: And that's, as you're referring to it, that maybe brings me to another question I was talking to before we started recording or we started, this was, I talked to Darren Guarnaccia from Hootsuite and he's awesome, honestly.

Great dude. And he really had a fun question as well. So he went into that. The market is continuing to expand with new solutions. How can buyers possibly navigate the space? And you as a technology, I would love your answer because you have quite the list. You have the classic 8,000 landscape of technology list, which is fantastic.

Scott Brinker: Oh yeah. It's a crazy thing. So I think there's a couple answers to that. ½You the first is to understand what the criteria are that you are looking to buy a solution for. And I would argue that one of the criteria that's becoming important now is does this tool have a good integration with my platform of choice?

Because we've gotten to a place now where if you know the creator of a specialist app, Doesn't do a great integration into the platform I'm using then I'm not so sure I want to buy it because then it puts the burden on me to either have it out there as some sort of isolated silo or figure out how I connect these together.

Myself and yeah, I think you're in the 2020 is marketers are. Marketers had done with that. They want the vendors to do the work for them on the integration side. So I think that frankly should be one of the criteria, but the other thing is, again, it's like with, the app store for Apple or Google play for Android, whatever you prefer is, It's not about evaluating every single possible option and somehow finding that magically.

Perfect. When you have this abundance of software, that's out there the way in which you approach this is it's what economists would call satisficing, which is to say, Hey, I need to do X. Can I find an app that does X? Yes, I do. I get it. I plug it in. Is it possible there was maybe some other app that could have also done X well, yeah, but why should I care?

If I get this one and it does what I want and it works great in integrates. I'm happy you're there. Absolutely. For the the app creators of how do they stand out? How do they compete, in that market, but for the buyers. Yeah. Boy, if you're trying to twist yourself into evaluating all 8,000 MarTech tools please, God don't do that.

. That would, yeah, that would be, that would blow your mind and make you not a happy marketer. So absolutely. I hear you on that one.  Think guys were already having way too much fun. At least I have is maybe two. So what's your experience in marketing technology and everything? What would you share to any person organization that is at some moment ready to replatform their online and or e-commerce environments?

Scott: Yeah, again, I think  the platform side is a really important lens to look at now when you're choosing major elements of your MarTech stack, are they going to be open? Are they going to work with everything else? Because I think the one thing we are quite certain of is this is an environment.

That is constantly changing and constantly innovating. And The most valuable thing we can do, when we're designing our infrastructure and our MarTech capabilities is to be designed for change to make sure that listen, I don't know exactly what I am going to need three years from now, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to want something three years from now.

That's different than what I have. And so can I make sure that the things I'm putting in place today? Are designed to adapt to new changes and having new things come in. That way, that would be my, the number one thing on my list of design for change. It's you, your future-self will.

Thank you.

Eric: Yeah. I think that is also such an important one. That ability to have a solid solution right now that of course will evolve and develop over the next many months when you have it. But be ready to have that openness of integration so that you can plug in necessary technologies to really drive the business.

Absolutely. Scott, is there anything else you would like to cover because. I just have plenty of

Eric Jan C. van Putten: fun here.

Scott: Want me to thank you so much for having me yeah. I could talk your ear off for hours on these things. So being an open-ended invitation, we'll never get off this.

Eric: That is absolutely true.

I suspect that I would love every minute of that, but then in that guys it was great having you, Scott. Thank you for sharing your experiences. Great insights. And I think the key takeaways for today were a platform with the idea of having an open integration space through other best of breed solutions, if necessary machine learning and future technologies are going to be extremely exciting and help our lives make it easier.

And we should be able then to actually optimize more personalized more as long as we can get a better result out of it. And probably five more topics. But with that, I would say thank everyone for tuning in. I wish everyone a great day. And thank you very much. And Scott Love it. Thank you until next time.

Scott: Thank you so much. Have a great day. Thanks.